Pensées

Thoughts on the Meaning of Life…..by Todd Helmkamp

And God Said….

Posted by Vogeler on February 7, 2007

So I’m researching various theories of Creation.

I’ve talked to literal, 6 day Creationists.

I’ve talked to Gap Theorists.

I’ve talked to Creationist Evolutionists.

Now I want to know what you think.  And if you need a definition of the three theories I mentioned, just write.

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15 Responses to “And God Said….”

  1. joe said

    Oh, Todd…

    *sigh*

    I’ve had several conversations with literalists, gappers and both sides of the evolutionary thing, and the only one that makes any sense, at least to me, is a literal 6 day creation.

    Consider this, if Paul tells us that sin entered the world through one man, Adam (Romans 5:12), and Adam wasn’t created until the sixth day. Then, how can there have been sin during a supposed gap? Sin didn’t enter the world until Adam sinned after day six. Furthermore, Exodus 20:11 shows us that “in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is…” There is no room for a gap. God did everything in six days.

    As far as creation evolution goes, I think you will find that every singly theistic evolutionist has their own personal brand of the theory. So, it’s really hard to talk about it. And, if they each have their own personal brand of the theory, then, frankly, if God did use evolution, only one of them can be right. Therefore, the majority of them are wrong.

    Here’s the deal: Gap Theory and Theistic Evolution are attempts to use humanistic and evolutionary thought to interpret the Bible, rather than using the Bible to interpret our thoughts.

    That’s my $0.02.

    And a great, well-balanced resource on creation is Ken Ham’s Answers in Genesis

  2. @Joe: I’m a huge fan of Ken Ham. Another great site is http://www.creationism.org

    Anyway, on to your comment: According to my understanding of the Gap theory, the Gap occurred before Adam’s fall. Therefore, it is still theoretical possible that there was a considerable gap of time.

    Not that I am arguing for or against the Gap Theory. Just playing the other side.

  3. joe said

    Yes, creationism.org is fantastic!

    Genesis 1:31 shows us that God called everything He had made very good. The Hebrew word used here is meod tov, which indicates a complete absence of any kind of evil or imperfection. If there was no evil or imperfection in what God created, then how could there have been an entire civilization destroyed prior to this “re-creation”? If Satan had already rebelled, then wouldn’t there be sin or imperfection somewhere in the creation? And if Satan hadn’t yet rebelled, then why did God destroy a pre-Adamic race?

    We don’t know how long Adam and Eve lived after the sixth day of creation before they fell. Couldn’t Lucifer have rebelled after the sixth day? That theory seems to fit a literal interpretation of scripture better than anything else I know of.

  4. Ah. I see your point. Here’s mine: not all Gap Theorists hold to the “primary civilization” model. I was coming from the understanding that this had more to do with plate tectonics and geology, rather than pre-Adamic man.

  5. nathan said

    Todd,
    i am undecided between the gap theory (the one you speak of) and literal.
    i agree with Todd’s assessment of what gap theory is.

    a ‘primary civilization’ would be a different theory, imho.

  6. joe said

    Ah…I don’t have any problems with a period of time existing, although I personally don’t think there was a gap. There is no strong indication either way, I guess.

    I’ve not really had any dealing with gappers who believe there was simply a period of time…everyone I have spoken with believes in a pre-Adamic race. Thus, my assumption. 🙂

  7. joe said

    Nathan, my biggest reason for not holding to a time gap between Genesis 1:2 and 1:3 is simply that the “and” at the beginning of Genesis 1:3 seems to be a continuation of the thought in 1:2. If that’s the case, why would time have passed?

  8. nathan said

    Joe,
    I have never heard the theory of a gap between 1:2 and 1:3.
    I believe the gap is between 1:1 and 1:2.

    a gap between 1:2 and 1:3 just doesn’t make any sense to me.

    i looked around for some version of a theory of a gap between 1:2 and 1:3 and nothing exists, to my knowledge. Do you have anywhere you can point me to read up on this one?

    here is a link of a press release from creationism.org: http://www.creationism.org/topbar/pressrelease.htm

  9. nathan said

    Todd,
    what is the creationist evolutionist standpoint? or do you have a good link to a brief explanation?

    and what are your thoughts on these theories? i would like to know your thoughts.

  10. joe said

    Hmm…I’ve heard both theories regarding the Gap…

    But I can’t find any good resources about the gap between 1:2 and 1:3. I’ve recently had several long talks with several who are convinced there is a gap between 1:2 and 1:3, and so it is at the forefront of my mind.

    My reasoning for not agreeing with that particular gap is simply that it makes no sense! verses 2 and 3 seem to be part of a continuing thought. Which, is apparently what everyone here feels.

    Anyway, as far as a gap between 1:1 and 1:2, I don’t disagree, although I do take issue with the idea of a pre-Adamic race. But, I would pose the question: Why would God create the heavens and the earth, and then wait around to do anything more with them?

    I’ve always read the first two verses like this: In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now [I see “Now” kind of like, “Here’s the story of what happened”] the earth was formless and empty…

    I guess it’s like a fairytale: In a land far far away there was a prince. Now this prince…

  11. @Nathan:

    Here are some good links. Basically, they believe that religion and traditional scientific interpretation of the evidence are not mutually exclusive. Evolution occurred as proposed by Darwin, but was guided throughout by God. They (for the most part) believe that the Genesis account is not literal, that it’s purpose is to demonstrate that God created the world. Or, to quote the late Pope John Paul II,

    “The Bible itself speaks to us of the origin of the universe and its make-up, not in order to provide us with a scientific treatise, but in order to state the correct relationships of man with God and with the universe. Sacred Scripture wishes simply to declare that the world was created by God, and in order to teach this truth it expresses itself in the terms of the cosmology in use at the time of the writer.”

    http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2COSM.HTM

    http://www.theisticevolution.org/

    My thoughts? I tend to reject theistic evolution, because any time you study the theory of macroevolution, if you look carefully you will see lots of “in theory”, “supposedly” “theoretically” etc. Indeed, there are so many holes in this theory that it’s hard to pay much attention to it. Of course, you can’t get away from it. Check out “The Case for a Creator” by Lee Strobel for some excellent arguments against macroevolution, theistic or otherwise.

    I am torn between The Gap Theory and Six-Day right now. I am currently studying both (when I have time).

    I completely reject out of hand the idea that man is indeed millions of years old, but was not imbued with a soul until approximately 30,000 years ago (the time when many archaeologists believe “Neanderthals” first began ritual burials) because there is no real archaeological evidence for it,and the Biblical evidence (Genesis 1 and 2 being different accounts of creating man) is pretty tenuous too.

    If I had to choose one right away, I would go with Literal Six-Day, because of hermeneutic interpretation. Hermeneutic interpretation teaches that you should always look first for the first logical explanation that makes sense, i.e. if the surface explanation works, go with that.

    But I am still studying it heavily. A lot will depend on some research I’m doing on the human fossil record.

  12. Tara Lilly said

    Can you guys help me out?? This is a little off topic but I’d like to pick your brains….I have no education whatsoever on the issues discussed in the comments of this blog, Todd. But I have a 6 year old son that loves dinosaurs and is also very intuitive, asking questions that I can’t answer well. All of the books he has on the subject refer to the dinosaur times as in millions of years. Based on my own public school education I have always taken the scientific basis for fossil dating at face value, and I don’t know if this is correct. The bones exist so clearly the creatures existed. What is the current Christian thinking on the dinosaur ages as a part of creation and what is your understanding of the time between them and man? Any thoughts might get me started on how to approach this. Thanks!

  13. Hi, Tara,

    Those are some really good questions. I’ve only studied the dinosaurs themselves superficially, but I definitely have some issues with radiocarbon dating, potassium-argon dating, thermoluminescence, and other methods used to date artifacts and our planet. All of these methods look at the amount of a certain element that is present in an artifact (or a bone or a rock) and compare it to a scientific equation that states how long it takes that element to decay. For example, carbon 14, or radiocarbon dating. The way that carbon 14 works, is that carbon 14 decays at a rate of 1/2 of its mass every 5370 years. So, in 5370 years, an item would have 1/2 of the carbon 14 it has now. A major problem with this is that it assumes the amount of carbon 14 available to be consumed by a plant or animal has stayed constant over time, which it has not. Although archaeologists claim to have adjusted for this, there is no true way to know for sure how much carbon 14 was in the atmosphere at the time a plant or animal was alive (carbon 14 only works for things that were once alive).

    That may not seem helpful, but I wanted to address your question about dating that you learned in school. Remember, Macroevolutionists (what you learned in school) and Creation Scientists have the exact same pieces of data, they just interpret them differently because of the way they already look at the world. So a macroevolutionist can’t accept the existence of God, because that would destroy his or her perception of how the world works. And a creation scientist will interpret the data from the standpoint of his or her belief in God.

    As far as your question about dinosaurs……

    http://www.creationism.org

    http://www.answersingenesis.org

    http://www.str.org

    http://www.icr.org

    Those websites will get you started. I also have a book written by Ken Ham (the founder of Answers in Genesis) written for the average person about the dinosaurs. It’s a really pleasant read, with some very good illustrations. Let me know if you’d like to borrow it. Hope this helps!

  14. Tara Lilly said

    Thanks, Todd! Great info to get me started!

  15. What was I doing when I stumbled upon your website? Much like the rest of you I guess, trying to gain more insite into the big picture of things.

    I have no formal education that will qualify me in any way to argue with anyone about how God Created things. For all I know he may have used a little of evolution in the process.

    The only thing I know for sure is that: He did Create all things and nothing without him was made. My conscience tells me this, my faith in him backs it up. Actually when you get right down to the bottom of the question, is it really important to us humans how he did it? Just have faith, believe in him and have hope that one day we will know all that we are supposed to know in the first place.

    I think when we take our little human minds, as good as God did make them, and try to second guess God we have made a pretty big assumption that we will get any intellegent answers. He will reveal it to you.

    I see God as great, big, and awesome, someone to greately admire and fear. I see him in his greatness when I see a flower, bird, butterfly and the water and wind that surrounds me. I see him in everything that I look at and touch. Yes, it’s just beyond me but I just love thinking about it all and find your quest very interesting to read and consider so I’m in no way criticizing any of you for anything.

    If you ask me I would tell you: I think God made the Earth long before he put man on it. I could even see it as God’s Zoo. A place with the most wonderful and marvelous aray of creatures ever imagined, including the Dinasours. When God wanted to enjoy a little relaxation he would go to his Zoo.

    Then there came the rebelion in Heaven when Lucifer took one third of the Heavenly beings and waged War with God and the rest of the Heavenly beings. You all know that story. Of course we know the outcome and that Satin with his huge pride thought he could put God down and claim equal status with him. It’s just like us today trying to figure out how God Created things………we still have a bit of left over pride instilled by the Devil in us.

    Then when God put down the rebellion he had all of those soldiers of Satin’s Army and what to do with them. So he put them into quarantine until he decided to make the Garden Of Eden on Earth to put them in so he would not have to destroy them.

    Isn’t that just like our Lovidng God, he at that time may have destroyed his Zoo and created our Garden of Eden. It was perfect in every way, I can only imagine how beautiful it must have been. I can still go out into the country on a nice day and see a glimpse of what it was but my mind is not big and strong enough to see just how good it really was.

    So God, after getting [Creating] things in the Garden made man [Adam] and instilled in his human [Animal] body the first of the Devils soldier into Adam’s body. I wonder what rank he held in that army? Then you know the rest of the story, he created Eve as Adam’s mate. I think he did this so that he would not have to create each and every one of the individuals he needed to contain the whole of the Devil’s army.

    As each new baby was born to Adam and Eve a unique set of circumstances sourrounded that individual that exactly fitted one of the souls in God’s quarantined bunch of rebels. I think this is why it is wrong to destroy any baby no matter what the circumstances may be that caused it to become a new being. There are many, many, different set of circumstances amoung the quarantined soldiers of the Devil’s army. Some were Generals, decending on down through and including the PF’C’s. The Generals being staunch supporters of the Devil’s evil schems and the PF’C’s who just got conned into joining up.

    The Devil [Satin] was thrown out of Heaven, I see him just floating around out there in the vast universe with no one to communicate with. Lonely and bored, bitter and hateful, resentful of loosing his followers. He could look into the Garden and see how happy they were there in such a perfect setting and that they would live forever in perfect peace. He contrived a way to communicate with Eve through the Snake. I think this is why most of us fear snakes so much.

    He promised Eve that if she would disobey God that she in fact would not die and that he, the Devil, would give her Technology that would make her equal to God and she could Create things just they way that she wanted them. She would be able to be greater than her mate, Adam, and all others. Pride set in and she bought the apple.

    She went home to Adam and he seing that she was different began to inquire what had taken place. He was accustomed to getting certain favors from his beautiful and irrestable woman and when she refused to comply without him becoming subservent to her, he agreed to also disobey God’s rules and he ate the forbidden fruit. Isn’t that just like us men today? Weak and lustful for a beautiful woman.

    That was Satin’s first move to regain his lost army of followers. His second move was to taint, make morally corrupt man’s Gene Pool. He did this by introducing the Nephilim into the world after God broke up the Garden of Eden and cast Adam’s family out. The Nephilim then mixed with the human women thus tanting the Gene Pool of Adam.

    Once Satin was able to corrupt the natural Gene Pool of God’s creation [Adam], he was able to make humans do all sorts of evil deeds. God looked down upon his Zoo, Garden of Eden, and all his Creation and was so very sad that he had ever made any of it. He then said all of them are corrupt in their Generations and I will destroy them all.

    One of his close followers reminded him of Noah and his immediate family. Noah had never mixed with the Nephilim and his Gene Pool was pure all the way back to Adam. God then decided to give it one more try so he spared Noah and his family in the Ark.

    As time has passed and we are here in 2007 the Satinic Nephilim has again been introduced and the Gene Pool is over flowing with evil. Satin is pouring Technology into the world as never before trying to make good his promise to Eve and most of us are just buying right into it hook line and sinker. WATCH OUT FOR THE CHIP [666] DON’T TAKE IT. IT IS ALREADY IN PLACE AND READY TO DEPLOY. HE WHO HAS AN EAR……….

    We are now at the place mentioned in Revelation 16:17-21: “The seventh angle poured out his bowl into the air. Then a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne. The voice said, “It is finished!” Then there were flashes of lightning, noises, thunder, and a big earthquake. This was the worst earthquake that has ever happened since people have been on earth. The great city split into three parts. The cities of the nations were destroyed. And God did not forget to punish Babylon the Great. He gave that city the cup filled with the wine of his terrible anger. Every island disappeared and there were no more mountains. Giant hailstones fell on the people from out of the sky. These hailstones weighed about 100 pounds each. People cursed God because of this trouble of the hail. This trouble was a terrible thing.”

    Now does it really matter whether it all began through the process of Creation of Evelotion? Whether it has been 6000 years or 600,000,000 years. God can do it any way he sees fit. I really don’t care how he did it. The only thing important to me is that he did it and he has given me, yes, one more chance to Repent and come on back home to be with him.

    Oh! God! I pray that my sinful ways are forgiven and that you will take me back soon.

    I hope all of you feel the same way I do. God bless you.

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